Carl Carrillo - Full-Time Musician - Artist Spotlight Interview
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 Carl Carrillo Fort Collins, Colorado |
Artist Stats:
Type of Act:
Music Style: Income Range: Territory: Full-time since: Official Website: YouTube Channel: Discography: |
Carl Carrillo Solo Acoustic-vocalist & Full Band Premier Classic Rock $30,000-40,000 annually Local 2001 ComeAugust.com None Come August |
Inspired by his musically talented daughter, Carl Carrillo became a full-time musician.
Carl Carrillo left his job 10 years ago to settle into a full-time musician's simpler lifestyle. He was braver than most of us because he was 51 when he left his comfortable job income and benefits. He describes himself as more of a vocalist than a guitar player, yet his calendar remains booked solid. This interview will help you to realize that it's not too late to become a full-time musician...it just takes a little inspiration and a lot of guts!
Carl Carrillo left his job 10 years ago to settle into a full-time musician's simpler lifestyle. He was braver than most of us because he was 51 when he left his comfortable job income and benefits. He describes himself as more of a vocalist than a guitar player, yet his calendar remains booked solid. This interview will help you to realize that it's not too late to become a full-time musician...it just takes a little inspiration and a lot of guts!
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Carl Carrillo's audio interview video: |
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Interview Transcript:
Jill Today we’ve got Carl Carrillo, and I’m excited to have him. He’s been playing in northern Colorado for ten years now, and I really admire him because he was 51 when he left a job making double what he’s making now, so we talk a lot about the financial discipline and the things that you need in order to be a successful full-time musician, especially when you’re leaving a job where you’re making a good income and now you’re actually having to downgrade your income. Carl is not even an outgoing kind of person, yet he stays booked all the time. So if you’re quiet and you think that’s an excuse, it’s not. Now he does have beautiful, sparkly, friendly eyes, so maybe that’s his secret. But what I love about Carl, it takes a lot of guts to be 51 years old and leave a good income to do this. You’ve got to really love music. He talks about how he charges for gigs, how he negotiates for gigs and things like that. So enjoy this interview. You’re never too old to start this business. Colonel Sanders was 75 years old when he started his chicken business. So you’re in good shape.
Jill Kind of going back ten years ago when you had a job, what kind of job did you have at that time?
Carl I was actually working in the car business. In finance.
Jill OK. You were in finance. You seem to be sort of soft spoken, but you’re selling gigs like crazy because your calendar is booked full. You’re doing a lot of double-header Fridays, I noticed.
Carl Yeah, I guess I don’t turn down very much.
Jill So when you were working financing auto sales, when you were thinking about becoming full-time, tell me a little about how you came to that idea to be a full-time musician.
Carl I actually played guitar with my daughter, she plays guitar, and we’d get together every couple of Sundays or so, and spend the afternoon just sitting around the living room playing guitar at her place or my place. We had fun. We never had any aspirations to do anything. I wasn’t doing anything musically. I have been off and on my whole life but I never seriously considered full-time, professionally, always as a hobby. And I found out she wrote music, she’d written some beautiful, absolutely fantastic songs, and when I heard them, I mean one day her mother asked me, did you know she writes songs? And I said “No.” So the next time we got together I asked her, “Have you ever written a song?” and she said, “Yeah. Lots of them.” And I said, “Play me something.” So she played it and it just knocked me out. I said, “People have got to hear this music.” So we had made an agreement to get a little bit serious about practicing and then going out and doing a couple of open mikes and see where it went from there. So we practiced for a month, maybe 6 weeks and got half a dozen or eight songs together, then we went to do an open mike at Fort Collins. And I was afraid for her, and she was afraid for me…well, we were both pretty nervous and we got up there and she just knocked them out. She slayed them. We were both well received. Since the response was so good, we just started doing more. We decided to try Denver, so we went down to Denver to do something and then back up here and then within a month, or two maybe, we had a paying gig. And then I decided, this could be… She was working a full-time job in Denver and I was at a point where my bills weren’t real high and I said, “Well, maybe I want to pursue this.” I wasn’t at an age to do something like that but I decided to give it a shot and create more opportunity for her to play. So I went and picked her up, and I started hosting some open mikes myself, and then from that just started booking gigs. I basically talked my way into the gigs. I’ve done some demos, but I’ve never been successful with the demos, although people said the demos sounded great, but I think most clubs get inundated with demos, and, I’m sorry, man, the list is full. They book mostly on their feel and on recommendation,
Jill Right.
Carl So I went to a couple of open mikes, and then they’d say, “Hey, are you interested in playing here?” and so I started playing and started booking and I the winter I’m at maybe 15, 16 gigs a month to now in summertime I’m up to 25 gigs a month and mostly word of mouth and I’m lucky to get a phone calls. I’ll go check out a place once in a while but by and large I get phone calls from people wanting me to do private parties or play at a place or they may recommend it, a place that has just opened up or they’ll recommend a place that’s just started live music. There’s a small network of music professionals, we turn each other onto jobs, sometimes we just kind of exchange gigs, or we’ll cover for each other It’s a small circle, there’s just a couple of guys I’ll do that way. Or they’ll say, “Hey, this guy or this place is booking music now, You need to talk to them, I’ll tell them you’re going to call them. So I’ll call them and typically you won’t have to go through the initial talk process. I don’t mind that. It kind of just evolved. It happened kind of quick. People have known that music has been a part of my life for a long time as a hobby, so it was not a shock. I wasn’t a closet musician. I directed a couple of church choirs when I was younger, and I’ve always played music at family meetings, you know, family barbecues and stuff. I was always playing and I was a good singer, I played well. Music has always been a part of my life, so the impression I make doing it professionally was not unusual. I did play part time for a little while until I decided I could do it full-time, so I was doing both jobs for a little while, and then I just started booking some week day gigs, and that’s the key to music, is getting those weekday gigs, you know. That is, the key to being successful. You can’t make enough money off of Friday and Saturday night to support yourself.
Jill Right. Another point you made was that your finances were in order. If somebody is just swamped with a million bills, I don’t think that it’s the right time to go full-time. You were already in a position where you had your bills low enough to go for it, right?
Carl Right. My car was paid off, I didn’t have a lot of credit card debt, a lot of my lifestyle wasn’t extravagant, I played a lot of golf but I worked at the golf course I played at, I volunteered for my green fees, so I was able to barter my way todo a lot of things.
Jill It’s amazing how creative we get when the money’s low
Carl Yeah, you can still do a lot of things without money. I think you need to have a segue Into it, you know, you can’t just stop one day and then tomorrow start being a full-time musician, you segue into it and then pretty soon you realize I think I can do this. And it makes it tough for a little while because you’re working at a full-time and a part-time job but once you realize yah, I can do it, and if you like it, then do it. You may get into it and find you don’t like it. You still like playing music but you don’t like doing it in front of people who don’t listen all the time, and so you don’t like dealing with club owners. If you don’t make that phone call, they’re not going to wait for you to call back. They’re going to the next guy on the list.
Jill Right, right.
Carl And you have to book yourself. That’s kind of how it goes. And some musicians don’t like that. They prefer to play one time and that’s fine.
Jill Because these are musicians who love to play music more than they love their day job, kind of explain the benefits of this lifestyle that you’ve got as a full-time musician.
Carl Well, that’s just it. You get to do something you love to do. You spend hours working on a song, I’ll play a song maybe 40, 50 times at home before I play it out, and I’ll still screw it up for a time or two. But I play it. You get to play songs and you’re able to sort the time that you’ve got on music and practice songs that you want to learn. You walk into a place to play all the time, and you’re like an employee there, and people like you. And the time. It’s the time budgeting. I think you have to be careful with how you budget your time. It’s not all free time. It’s not all play time. You go out and you network and you talk to people and you’ve got to be nice to everybody. Even the people you don’t like.
Jill Yeah.
Carl They are all customers and they all spend money… It’s not an easy lifestyle. It’s difficult but it’s fun, it’s enjoyable. You’ve got to make sure that you have certain things under control like the amount of money that you spend, and your lifestyle. You're working, you’re in the public eye. I go to the store all the time, and almost every time I go to the store I’m recognized by somebody who knows I play music. So you have to recognize that and be OK with that, and I don’t remember a lot of faces, or names of people, but I’ll try to be friendly and you have to kind of expect that, and I’m a small time guy but it still happens within your neighborhood. You get recognized and people know you and at my age it’s something fun to do. It’s been a while since I’ve had a vacation, although my whole life is kind of a vacation. I mean, people pay to come here so I guess I’m here, but… I’ve been to Hawaii several times in my past and I don’t know that I’ll ever get there again. Certainly not based on what I make now, but that’s your life’s dream, to be able to do what you like to do and what you love to do and actually have it be your primary source of income is a godsend, and God bless if you can do that. But I’ve been fortunate to be able to keep busy here. I don’t make a lot of dough but I keep busy and I enjoy it. It’s fun. Like a kid in a candy store.
Jill How long did it take you to replace the income from your job when you started out?
Carl I haven’t. I was making a lot more in the car business, but I learned to adapt, I learned to live on less, I am very careful about how I spend my money, and try to be as smart as I can with my money. It’s a difficult situation. I’m not an aspiring musician but a struggling musician. Nonetheless, I don’t… Financially, it’s a tough life to recommend. But from a satisfaction point of view there’s a lot of people who’d say I’m lucky, and I recognize that I’m pretty lucky to be able to do what I like to do and somehow get by.
Jill Well, let me ask you this. When you were in the car business making more than you’re making now, how many hours were you putting in to make that income?
Carl I was working maybe 40, maybe 40 or 50 hours a week.
Jill And how many hours do you think you work now, including your performing hours?
Carl Well, if I average. I think this year I’m going to be just short of 200 gigs a year, and I’d multiply that by, I’d say an average of 3, 3 ½ hours a gig. And that’s not all I do. I practice an awful lot, especially during the winter. During the summer not as much because I’m playing 5, 6 times a week. In the wintertime I’m down to 3, 4 times a week and practice more. I put in a lot of practice time, I learn a lot of different material and any of it is fun to do. I think when you’re younger there are other things to consider, your family and how you deal with that, and a traveling lifestyle and things like that, so you need to look at it very logically, look at your life logically and determine the hours that you’re going to be working and analyze and decide if that’s something you want to do. If you want to devote that time of day on a regular basis to your work. You’re working swing shift, you know.
Jill Yeah, because you may have a spouse who maybe cannot handle that. That is something that has to be discussed if you’re married and “Are you going to be O.K. with me working at night?” basically.
Carl Yeah, and working with the public, so both people have to be comfortable. It has to be kind of a team decision to do that and you both have to be very confident and comfortable in your relationship. Thirty years ago I’m not sure I could have survived this lifestyle. I didn’t have the restraint, I didn’t have the self control necessary. It’s difficult today. I’m 61 years old and it’s difficult. I couldn’t imagine it if I was 31.
Jill On the website the first thing we talk about is the 3 things required to do this full time and one of them is discipline. The good thing is that discipline is a skill that can be developed and learned. Talent is something you’ve got to be born with. But the other 2 skills, selling and discipline, are things you can learn and become better at.
Carl Right
Jill What type of venues do you kind of look for?
Carl I look for a place that has an “I like the neighborhood” kind of feel, like a neighborhood bar, the kind of places that regulars go in, and my age group. Because of my age I play a little bit older, some older stuff. I can play new stuff but I mix it in, and I like playing for a place that has a regular crowd because then you have a better opportunity to build a fan base within that club or restaurant.
Jill You’re looking for venues that already have people coming no matter what. They have their end product to sell and they’re just adding you as atmosphere.
Carl Yeah, and they’re adding me to keep people coming there and to have an enjoyable experience. I don’t play real loud, I try to fit the room that I’m in, and I look around to see how people are conversing. If they’re yelling at each other, if they can maintain a conversation, if they’re paying attention to me. If I’m the focus, I act a little bit more like I’m the focus. If I’m not the focus I can blend into the background, and just play songs. I can be a lot of different things depending on the venue I’m at and that may be one of the reasons why I’ve been successful in building is that I can go in and if nobody pays attention to me, I mean, everybody will. They’ll make comments, “I liked the music tonight.” But you don’t get that immediate reaction and people are just there to have a good time and they’ll say at the end of the night, “That was fun, we should come here again.” That’s my goal, to make their evening enjoyable.
Jill Now when you’re out selling gigs, what’s your pitch? When you’re talking to a new venue owner, what do you say to get them to book you?
Carl In most cases I’ve been recommended there, or I’ll have a person I’ll have a person to talk to. And I’ll say, “So and So said I should come by, that you have live music and I’m interested in playing here. I’ve got a pretty large repertoire of music and I just kind of bounce off the people like you.” Like I say, I don’t get much business from demos. Typically I don’t go cold calling. I will stop in. I’m not afraid to but . . .
Jill We’ve found passing out CDs is a total waste of time. Just a total waste of time.
Carl I couldn’t agree more.
Jill And that’s what I found interesting when we first talked because you’ve got your solo acoustic act but you also play with a band, and you were mentioning that even though you made less, it was a trade-off, so why don’t you explain that a little bit more?
Carl Well, the trade-off is the energy. I like the energy of the band. We get to play, the focus isn’t so much just on me, I get to share stage time with other great musicians and their energy. People are more into band. You have to establish the base and everything. They’re more into bands, and the solo guys, I think basically they’re focus is more on background music. Once in a while they’re the focus, but the band always is. People are there to hear the band and they’ll dance and have a good time. The money isn’t as good but it opens up opportunities. We’ll get weddings some times that are paying two or three times what we make in a club setting. So we’re getting something. I wouldn’t be booked for a wedding if it weren’t for the band. So there’s opportunities that come up, like a Fine Arts festival, different places that I get to play that I have access to that ordinarily I wouldn’t as a solo musician. I’ve booked anywhere from a single all the way up to a 5-piece band, 5- or 6-piece band, basically and what I like is that, if someone’s thinking about a musician, like about me, they’re not going to be concerned about “Oh, is his style of music going to fit?” They can tell me, “Well, we’re thinking about having a band.” Or “We just want a solo.” Or a two or three piece acoustic. I can do that.
Jill We find that all, well, 90% or our private parties are booked from playing out, I mean, a lot of people want private parties but you kind of have to be playing out to get those customers. Do you find the same thing?
Carl Yeah. That’s your audition. Unless you’re recommended by somebody.
Jill Right. That’s the other 10%.
Carl Yeah, people will hear you and they’ll say, “Hey, what do you charge for a wedding?” “What do you charge for a big party?” and I never quote a price right away. I want to find out more details, what it is, where it is. I don’t want to leave money on the table, but I don’t want to price myself out of the market. So the only way I feel I’m prepared to bid is to find out more information.
Jill If you were to move to a new town, how long would it take you to book your calendar full, do you think?
Carl I would say (pause) probably four to six months.
Jill Four to six months?
Carl Yeah. I think so. Just because some places are booked pretty far in advanced, and if I moved to a new place, I would look for places that don’t have music right now. It would be easier to get started there because you can book something out a couple weeks in advance, just enough time to try to promote it a little bit. And in conjunction with that I would go to clubs that have live music on a regular basis to try to get into a relocation or get booked there. Now typically they have music booked pretty far out. I have a club I just booked for all of 2012 all the way through December, and I play there a couple times a month, so, if they have live music there, they’ll book in advance so it’s hard to move to a town and expect to start playing right away. So what I would look for would be like a little restaurant that has a little corner that may be available and say, “Hey, I’d be willing to play here,” and I would go ahead and cheap-sell myself and try to build from there.
Jill That’s interesting because that’s exactly how we do it when we go to another town. T will go to places that don’t currently have live music and talk them into it and make it affordable for them and that’s kind of how we get booked so fast. And then immediately start networking with other musicians in that area.
Carl Right.
Jill It probably wouldn’t take you that long to get booked, doing it that way.
Carl Dealing with other musicians, I’ve found that is difficult, it’s not as easy as it sounds, I don’t know whether it’s just jealousy or … My friends.. I develop friendships with other musicians and then it’s easier to talk about other gigs. If you go just cold to some other musician and say, “Hey, where do you play?” you’re kind of in competition with them, you are and you aren’t really. One person can’t play everywhere. But I’ve found that a lot of musicians have a difficult time opening up and being friendly. So it’s taken me some time to where I feel comfortable networking with other musicians, and that’s only because I’ve developed friendships with those people.
Jill Explain exactly how you charge for your gigs, how you maybe shoot for this, negotiate for that, depending on the day of the week, private parties, things like that.
Carl Private parties are usually more expensive. It’s a one kind of thing and they probably have a bigger budget to work with. I do clubs a little bit different. It’s based on how big they are, how busy they are. If it’s a small place, I don’t want to gouge so much money. “My biggest concern is, I don’t want to do a lot of gigs one time. I want to play at your place a lot, and to do that I sometimes sacrifice a little bit of dough but I make it up in the long run because I’ll do, I’ll play at your place several times.” I’m pretty much in line with most other musicians. Based on conversations I kind of know what they charge. I won’t undercut, or I’ll come in where they are.
Jill You’ve been here 10 years. What do you find the market rate for an acoustic solo 3-hour gig would be in this area?
Carl I would say maybe $150, on a week day, I’d say $150 or $200, depending on the place. There are a few guys charging a lot less, and a few who charge more. But I play mostly small places, and for them to be able to justify the entertainment expense they have to have turnover. They want people to go in there and stay and have a few extra drinks because of the ambience, you know, the music and the atmosphere.
Jill So if you had a weekly gig, the typical market rate around here for a weekly gig for a 3-hour acoustic, what would you guess that is? I’m talking about Monday through Thursday.
Carl I would say anywhere from $100 to $150
Jill But then on the weekends you’re saying from around$150 to $200?
Carl Yeah, it goes up a little on weekends.
Jill So you’re sticking around the market rate, basically.
Carl Yeah.
Jill O.K.
Carl At parties, you get more. For parties and weddings and special events.
Jill How much do you typically get for those? Let’s say a 2-hour typical private party deal.
Carl It may be close to double what the regular rate would be.
Jill That’s exactly how we charge, too, the way you’re doing it now. Talk to me about, explain to me, when you’re negotiating for a gig, let’s say you run across somebody who wants you for Friday night 3 hours for $100 but you know you can make more elsewhere but you want to play there. How would you negotiate and bring them up to your rate?
Carl I would do one of a couple of ways. I would book it under the condition that I’ll say, ”I’ll come in and play for you one time for $100 and then afterwards we’ll talk if you want me to come back again. But this is my normal rate.” And so, I’d do it that way. For me, I’d be willing to play for a cheaper rate just the first time. You have to be real careful with your language and you have to be very specific “Gosh, I don’t mind coming in the one time and play for you.” It’s like a paid audition and afterwards if they say, “Yeah, we want you back,” “OK, this is my normal rate.” And then if they’re OK with it, fine, if they want it. I don’t book any Friday or Saturday gigs on a weekly basis because it kind of takes me out of the loop. I will play, there’s place I do play a couple times a month, that I will book, big weekend nights, usually 8-10 and I play two times at the place. I try to save some of the spots for the band. The band gets paid more money but you make less because it’s spread out between other guys, so I make less money in a band situation.
Jill It seems that a lot of the bands around here, when it’s all said and done, end up with $80. Does that sound about right to you?
Carl Yeah, I try to shoot for $100 bucks per guy, but it’s sometimes difficult. You’re probably right on with $75 to $80 bucks a guy.
Jill And in Dallas? You’ve got so many outskirts in Dallas you can work plain-o for two years and probably not play everywhere you could play. But if you’re going to Dallas, there’s just too many people who want to play for free, so there’s just no point.
Carl Yeah. That’s something you run into. There are people who are engineers or who have a great job doing what they do and they’re paid musicians at the same time. They’ve made the decision to maintain the full-time income and they want to play for fun. They can afford to buy the band equipment and they practice for fun and they play and then they’ll go out. They’re the ones that are tough competition because they’ll go out and play for next to nothing. They play just to play.
Jill Right! Let me ask you this. You’ve played in this area for ten years now. There are weekly gigs you’ve played for two years at a time, have you ever had one of your weekly gigs just go stale on you?
Carl Yep, and they do it on a constant basis.
Jill O.K. Talk to me little bit about that.
Carl Well, a good part of it is my attitude. When I go in, I think, oh, I’m going to play the same old thing, and I have to be patient, you know. I have to say, “This is my job.” Some gigs, some nights are worse. Other gigs, other nights are fun. And you never know which way it’s going to go until it’s over with. But I just, every song I do I try to sing it as good as I can and there are some times when I just don’t feel like I’m reaching anybody, and I think, “Oh, my goodness, this isn’t working anymore.” And then something happens. Somebody new who’s different comes in. Somebody comes in with a different attitude and you hit a song they like and they react to it. And that lifts you. You don’t look for it. You don’t look for satisfaction. You don’t look for the instant gratification from everybody. You look for whatever it is, and it may have come from yourself some nights because it isn’t just happening. But there’s that one person that liked that one song you did. That’s enough. But the best gigs, there’s a lot of them. I’ve enjoyed them. There’ve been certain experiences that surround a gig that have made it a lot of fun but the gig itself is … Like if the band’s playing or I’m playing and everything’s just flowing, I feel I’m not just singing the lyrics but I feel with the music, those are special moments.
Jill Now, as a full-time musician, what advice would you give to other musicians that want to go full-time?
Carl First of all, take a good inventory of yourself financially and determine what you’ve got going out, how to make it as small as possible so you’re dependent on your finances, on the money income, as little as possible. Open a savings account to draw from. Plan on nothing coming in for a while. You’ve got to buy equipment, you‘re always buying new equipment, trying to build up your equipment. I would say just take a good look at yourself financially to see how you can cut corners. Your lifestyle better change. I think you need to look pretty hard at the use of alcohol. You’re in an environment where people are drinking all the time. While you’re working, you can’t be drinking all the time. You need to be strong enough to be able to turn down that free beer. I’ve played places, I’ve got a local bar that is just a couple blocks from my house that I’ll go to where I’ll have a few but if I’m playing downtown I’ll have one beer and that’s it for the rest of the night even though they don’t charge me. So to be able to turn down a free drink or free beer takes a lot of will power and you’ve got to be able to do that. You can’t afford to get popped for a trick and you lose your permit to drive and get to gigs, so you gotta be careful.
Jill You use a laptop instead of a songbook when you perform, but how many songs can you do from that laptop? Like how long is your song list?
Carl I’d say it’s probably about, hmmm, five or six hundred songs.
Jill Because it always seems to me that the thicker the book, the more people get paid. Do you notice that?
Carl Well, yeah, maybe. I don’t know if it’s more money but it may get you more work because of the variety. You’re not pigeon-holed into one particular genre of music. I’ve done Johnny Cash, Pink Floyd, Santana, and the James Taylor back to back. I know a few James Taylor songs, I knew some Neil Diamond songs, I knew Pearl Jam, I knew some Beatles, Van Morrison. Typically If you ask me about an artist, if it’s within my range as far as its musical style, I can do it. I can also do Jack Johnson. Some groups have a particular style that makes it very difficult to play as a solo guitarist.
Jill But you took Men at Work’s “Down Under” and made it your own and that went over real well, too.
Carl Yeah, exactly. But I play my guitar a little differently than most, I don’t particularly consider myself a good guitar player. I think I’m a better singer than guitar player. But I play a percussive rhythm, so sometimes the rhythm of the song is what solves the music part of it and I’m just singing words. But yeah, some songs… I do a couple of Lynyrd Skynyrd songs, but I don’t play really like him, not at all, so it’s kind of limiting. Like some signature songs. In the band we do “Honky Tonk Women” by Rolling Stones. I don’t do that solo, just because it’s hard to do with just a single guitar unless you have effects and it’s hard to do that signature riff that you hear.
Jill While we’re on the subject of cover songs, have you ever met a young musician, or a musician who is just starting out but they don’t want to do cover songs. They want to do all original music. What would you tell them about making money or going full-time?
Carl Well, that’s a harder road to go, road simply because most people like to hear what they’ve heard before. My recommendation would be to start out with maybe a 70-30 or 80-20 covers to originals, and then as they build an audience base start doing 60-40, 50-50, and then to a point where you do primarily all originals. I think that by playing cover songs you open up, there’s a lot more venues that are better available to you, you reach more people, and you can still put a few or your originals and work on them and as your originals become more and more popular, then I think you can start reversing the covers to originals. I think it’s more difficult if you’re going straight originals. It’s a harder road. It’s not impossible but it’s just a harder road to make a living. Oh boy, I just think that playing strictly originals kind of limits where you can play, how much you can make, and you’ve got to be extremely lucky in a way to make it in the music business, but it’s easier to make a living and get by using covers because then more people will hire you out People just want to hear what they’ve heard before.
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